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    Greece–Turkey football rivalry

    Does anyone know about relevant sources in which the primary topic is the rivalry between these two teams? I came across it and it's yet another international rivalry page giving a military history lesson and a list of results separated by decades. I'd be amazed if these two countries took a football match passively, so I'm not nominating for deletion, but the page is really not showing me anything good. Unknown Temptation (talk) 18:53, 16 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    I have processed the nomination. A total of 14 matches over more than 70 years does not make a rivalry. — Jkudlick ⚓ (talk) 22:25, 16 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Going back to this article, there is national and domestic, the problem with the article it's focusing on the national teams and isn't on all the problems of the domestic clubs which have had even greater issues. It's actually a much larger subject than what people realise. If done right you could easily have a good article. The merge idea (at AfD) of sports into one article would actually balloon and isn't a good idea. Govvy (talk) 08:20, 23 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Requested move at Talk:CD Extremadura 1924#Requested move 12 March 2025

    There is a requested move discussion at Talk:CD Extremadura 1924#Requested move 12 March 2025 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Valorrr (lets chat) 16:08, 17 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    User talk:Victorfcoimbra

    Not to WP:CANVAS but I've been in a bit of a dispute with this user. The user has been advised by User:Kokoeist to leave infoboxes as league only. User:BrazilianDude70 at first thought Victor was just adding stats from Brazilian state league matches, but has since seen that he was adding cup and continental games too. User:Drmies discussed on the user talk page that there is probably ground to ask for admin action.

    I interpret there as being a language issue as Victor has never added text, just digits, and has never written an edit summary or talk post. BRD70 said there could be confusion as the Portuguese Wikipedia puts all games in the infobox. The reversions are relentless and no dialogue is possible with this user.

    I can't go to WP:ANI as I'm just on phone and won't be able to collect the diffs. Unknown Temptation (talk) 17:49, 17 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Sportski recenzist return?

    Related: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Sportski recenzist

    I happened to notice that the IP ranges in the last investigation regarding this user seem to be continuing the same behavior as before the initial temporary block resulting from the investigation. To clarify where the connection comes from, I (under a different similar username) initially reverted an attempted PROD they made in 2022 following suspected changes within Malaysia Super League at the time, followed by multiple reverts of the same user within a 24-hour period. I managed to get them blocked quickly after they got aggressive with me, and for a period after, the user had harassed me multiple times on Wikimedia (Commons, especially), an old YouTube channel, and on Telegram trying to harass me into "changing it back". Since those harassment attempts, that SPI has been made and it seems you guys are now aware of the behavior.

    Also giving a courtesy ping to previously involved editors @GiantSnowman, Nehme1499, Drat8sub, Firefly, Iggy the Swan, and Snowflake91, who also seem to have experienced this user and series of IPs in the past. I bring this up here cause this same behavior is happening again, particularly with PROD notices here and here. Jalen Barks (Woof) 04:57, 20 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]


    Of course he is still editing, not only unregistered but also as User talk:Cenderabird. Snowflake91 (talk) 09:23, 20 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    What's the evidence? I suggest you re-open SPI. GiantSnowman 14:37, 20 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    When I first encountered Sportski recenzist in October 2022, I had reverted this attempt at a PROD here, which is my basis for the similarity in PROD style. The user had harassed me off-site once and on Wikimedia projects multiple times in the year since for my full rollback of at least 24 hours worth of this user's edits in the same timeframe, plus subsequent block. Jalen Barks (Woof) 16:32, 20 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    At the moment, I am uncertain on whether to take this to SPI myself or with the necessary backup. I have been hesitant to revert 93.140.45.145 for the block evasion on grounds they might know who I am after my August 2024 name change (I was formerly JalenFolf). Jalen Barks (Woof) 16:33, 20 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I have gone ahead and reverted the PRODs. I will let an experienced editor assess other edits to see if we can take the IPs back to SPI. Jalen Barks (Woof) 16:58, 22 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Footballer statistics

    Is there a consensus on Template:Infobox football biography to list league games only in the person's infobox stats? Why is it different from senior international matches that users are free to list appearances and goals across all competitions? ⋆｡˚꒰ঌ Clara A. Djalim ໒꒱˚｡⋆ 12:30, 22 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Yes there is a consensus, this has been discussed multiple times before. And all internationals are the same standard of match and all international caps get counted, whereas for many countries and leagues and historic eras, there is not reliable data on Cup games and appearances. Joseph2302 (talk) 12:34, 22 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    (ec) Yes, there absolutely is consensus and has been for many years. Domestic stats for competitions other than the league are often hard to find, especially for earlier eras (e.g. there is a book that lists all players' league stats in England from 1888 to 1939, but it does not include any games in any other competitions), so the only way to be consistent is to list only league stats for everyone -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:56, 22 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Where on this wiki? I meant... Is there any discussion regarding it? ⋆｡˚꒰ঌ Clara A. Djalim ໒꒱˚｡⋆ 23:38, 23 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Search the archive, using some keywords, at the top of the page. Seasider53 (talk) 00:14, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Yeah like this is so inherent it's going to be impossible to locate the original consensus - but it's definitely there. See e.g. {{Infobox football biography}} which confirms it is "Club domestic league appearances and goals" only. GiantSnowman 01:33, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Citations wanted - potential inclusions for List of footballers killed during World War II

    Reposted and updated version of original now archived.

    As main contributor to this article, I flag up for attention of others on the project a number of candidates for the list that are already wiki-articled and known or believed to have been killed in or died as a result of circumstances brought on by the war (eg execution, in enemy captivity, effects of wounds etc) but which so far lack a reliable citation regarding their death which is preconditional to inclusion in the list. A few have no death circumstances described in the text of their article but I note have been put on category lists that suggest someone knew/believed they died in wartime circumstances. I also include those whose death circumstances are disputed - see their talk pages for further detail - and are in need of a conclusive ruling in or out.

    • Josef Adelbrecht (Austria) - categorised as Austrian military personnel killed in the war. His German wikipedia article states he was killed on the Russian front NW of Moscow. Disputable death date.
    • Dragutin Babic (Yugoslavia) - there is a source in Croat language but it is unclear to me it indicates manner of death
    • Josef Bergmaier (Germany)
    • Jozsef Eisenhoffer aka Joszef Aczal (Hungary) - also disputed death circumstances
    • Bronislaw Fichtel (Poland) - disputed death date (see talk page)
    • Hermann Flick (Germany) - stated to have been killed in action near Leningrad in 1944 without citation.
    • Josef Fruhwirth (Austria) - categorised as Austrian military personnel killed in WWII. His article in German wikipedia has citation to an Austrian newspaper report of his death which I find unreadable, I can only make out he died on the 'Ostfront' (Eastern Front). His German wikipedia article locates his death in Russia at Khalikovo (a place that appears to have no article).
    • Nikolai Gromov (Russia) - Russian language profile says he 'died at the front' in 1943 without further detail. More informative sources if found preferred.
    • Karl-Richard Idlane (Estonia) - Death cause and death dates (both in 1942) disputable.
    • Karl Kanhauser (Austria/Czechoslovakia) - German wikipedia states without citation he was drafted into the German army towards end of WWII and deployed to Yugoslavia where he was reported missing, no final year given.
    • Franz Krumm (Germany) - There is a link to the German Volksbund (war graves commission) website but it does not directly connect to his details and I lack expertise to interrogate the site.
    • Willi Lindner (Germany) - source in German language, not fully clear about death details
    • Johann Luef (Austria) - his German wikipedia article indicates he died of wounds in hospital in East Prussia. Can anyone more fluent in German make out further detail in the newspaper report used as reference?
    • Josef Madlmayer (Austria)
    • Frank Manders (Great Britain) - Would welcome information that can definitely connect the airman who died at Sutton Coldfield to the airman of that name who is known to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission (CWGC) and is buried at Maidenhead, England. (There is a minor date discrepancy regarding his death.)
    • Artur Marczewski (Poland) - his Polish and German wikipedia articles state without citation he disappeared in January 1945 following Red Army advance into Poland, where he had been working for the Germans as a factory official.
    • Vladimir Markov (footballer) (Russia) - Stated in Olympedia to have died in Leningrad in 1942, which coincided with the long running siege of the city. Can evidence be found for treating him as a victim of the siege?
    • Alexander Martinek (Austria/Germany) - Death date is disputable, the German wikipedia page gives this as in 1945 and cites it to the Volksbund website but the citation is not linked to a web page.
    • Otto Martwig (Germany) - stated to have died in battle of Berlin without citation in German wikipedia.
    • August Mobs (Germany) - said to have been killed in air raid.
    UPDATE - I have discovered in the External Link in the English article to the Eintracht Frankfurt archive shows a cutting from newspaper "Kicker-Fussball" which summarily states he was victim of an air raid ("Terrorangriff" in German) on Frankfurt am Main: August Möbs at eintracht-archiv.de. It remains to be ascertained if he was a purely civilian victim or happened to be a serviceman. Cloptonson (talk) 18:29, 23 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Alberto Nahmias (Greece) - death circumstances disputed; his English article gives two different years of death in 1980s without source. His Greek wikipedia biography states he was arrested by the Germans in 1942 because of Jewish origins and further trace was lost, possibly because of being put to death, although also said to have emigrated post-war. Can someone find sources that settle this? The nearest named individual recorded from Greek Jews listed in the Testimony Pages of Yad Vashem is an Alberto Nachmias (sic), born in Greece, died at Auschwitz, age given as 42 but no birth or death date given. However out of the estimated 6M Jews killed in the Holocaust only 4.5M are known to Yad Vashem.
    • Slavko Pavletic(Croatia) - no death circumstance details given in text but has been categorised as a Croatian civilian killed in the war. In Croatian wikipedia, he is stated with citation to have been executed following Communist seizure of power in Croatia with 'date of execution' stated unknown, though the infobox gives a precise date of 27 May 1945 and death place as Zagreb.
    • Kurts Plade (Latvia) - Repatriated to Germany as a Baltic German, his Latvian wikipedia article states he was 'killed' (no further detail) in February 1945 in Poznan, Poland. I note his death coincided with the Soviet siege of Poznan.
    • Bernardo Poli (Italy) - Italian wikipedia indicates he died in 'an unspecified war accident' serving as an airman. Only citation in English wikipedia does not indicate manner of his death.
    • Fyodor Rimsha (Russia) - Stated without citation in English and Russian wikipedias to have died in siege of Leningrad, allegation not supported by cited sources Olympedia and Russian language Profile, the latter of which states his fate after 1914 "is unknown".
    UPDATE - I have found a citation to a recent Russian newspaper article which mentions him in passing as one of three pre-Russian Revolution national players who died in Leningrad during the siege https://portal-kultura.ru/articles/history/341863-no-gorod-nash-sporil-s-nelegkoy-sudboyu-futbol-v-blokadnom-leningrade/. I have added it to the English wiki article, though I would welcome if more definite published evidence could be produced.Cloptonson (talk) 08:37, 23 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Holger Salin (Finland) - No decisive death date in most wikipedias. Although Finnuser reported a newspaper report states only he was killed in an accident, his German wikipedia article states that after his last international match (1943) he "fell..in the Continuation War" [term given to Finland's hostilities with the Soviet Union over 1941-45 in concert with Germany] in '1943 or 1944'. I do wonder if he was serving in the Finnish Armed Forces though. (Accidents as well as combat killed a number of players on the list.)
    • Aristotel Samsuri (Albania) - Reportedly executed in German concentration camp in Greece as a Communist partisan between 1942/1944, but was claimed by the postwar Communist regime of Albania to have escaped and survived before proclaiming him a martyr in 1981.
    • Gennaro Santillo (Italy) - Categorised as Italian military personnel killed in the war but no indications of military service on Italian wikipedia. Would like to be more certain of his status (mil or civ) before adding him.
    • George Scoones (expatriate Briton who played in France) - French wikipedia (not English) give him same death date in 1940 as a soldier known to the CWGC in this link: https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2278867/george-w-scoones/ See talk page - any agreement this is likely to be the same man? Cattivi found link to a French newspaper that suggest he is the same man. I am awaiting answers to questions I have put him.
    • Harry Spencer (footballer) (New Zealand, previously played in England) - There are similarities with a New Zealand soldier known to the CWGC (see talk page of article). Can someone find confirmation they are the same man? In 2022 NZFC said he was investigating but has so far not responded.
    • Erwin Stührk (Germany) - disputable death date, death place given in Volksbund site not easy to ascertain as it only gives German form of name rather than its vernacular.
    • Ludwik Szabakiewicz (Poland) - disputable death details, particularly date, between English and Polish wikipedia articles
    • Hugo Väli (Estonia) - originally listed by Olympedia as died in Soviet camp in Siberia, the source now falls in with information he died in Talinn in September 1944, making it questionable whether he was in Soviet captivity or died as a result.
    • Willi Völker (Germany) - uncertainty about death location, identification questionable due to disputable birthplace details.
    • Heinz Warnken (Germany) - German wikipedia gives him as gefallen (fallen) in 1943 but no detail of precise death date or death place.

    There may be additions coming onto the list so I encourage watch this space! Others are welcome to add. Please let us know if sources are found and added into their articles.Cloptonson (talk) 14:30, 22 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    League season notability

    Hoping I could get some clarification on the existing league notability; does this also apply to league seasons as well? FastCube (talk) 08:06, 23 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    See WP:NSEASONS. GiantSnowman 10:57, 23 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Don Kitchenbrand

    Hello from german Wikipedia: I am wondering if the name is "Don Kitchenbrand" or if it is "Don Kichenbrand" (without the "t"). Reason: Open reference 14 in the article (currently the last one) and you see the title "Don Kichenbrand (1933-2025)". When I google the name, I find both variants, even in newspapers. As a final resort, the grave stone is expected to show the correct name. So which one is the correct one, or shall we mention both variants? --Wurgl (talk) 06:59, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    YouTube overriding official reports for several tournaments

    More frequently of late, I have been seeing like recent ones such as at 2024–25_AFC_Champions_League_Two_group_stage where the time of goal scored has been changed, usually by one minute lower than what is in the official report, and quoting YouTube in the edit summary (i.e. source : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQ_KRt0V9Jk). Consider the frequency of such edits as per @RKC Vakwai: in several major tournaments (at Special:Contributions/RKC_Vakwai).

    A few issues here, and the smaller ones are the goal might have been scored at 31'42″ and the new edit says 31, based on someone watch the video whereas AFC report will have 32 as it is in the 32nd minute. So I am uncomfortable that the article provides a reference (usually a primary source - AFC / FIFA) and the text shows something different, and very difficult to find the source later unless you are trawling through the edit summaries. And I am uncomfortable that the text is also wrong.

    More broadly, this is increasing in frequency because more full match videos are now available to watch. Should the watching of a YouTube video constitute a valid reference for Wikipedia (see WP:ORMEDIA), and if so, should it be added to the match report to supplement the official report? Or is it a form of WP:OR, and its use is replacing a valid primary reference? Or is it something in between? Has there been consensus in the past on this subject to inform the answers to these questions? Matilda Maniac (talk) 22:54, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    My opinion: Statistics from official, primary sources (AFC, FIFA, etc.) should be used. The score bug shown on screen is not guaranteed to be accurate.  skovhund  t  23:30, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    First of all, the example cited is not a discrepancy, but a misunderstanding of how football scores are reported. 31:05 is in the 32nd minute, so the two sources agree, but the editor making the change is just misunderstanding one of them. Beyond that, if you're determining for yourself exactly when the ball crossed the goal line and then checking the onscreen clock, that crosses the line into original research. That methodology won't always be unambiguous; it presumes that the onscreen clock is accurate. In doing that you're making a fair number of hidden assumptions and decisions that are properly left to the authors of reliable secondary sources, not Wikipedia's own editors. Sir Sputnik (talk) 23:43, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]