User talk:Nardog: Difference between revisions

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New Page Patrol | July 2022 Backlog Drive
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(t · c) buidhe 20:26, 1 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Nardog! You've helped me a couple of times in the past with my technical requests and I was thinking that you could also help me in this one. Normally I would just ask at WP:US/R but the problem is that I'm not really sure what to ask for and that's where I was thinking you can be of help more: Help me better formalize my request.

The problem that I'm trying to solve is this: Every once in a while I collaborate with editor Trappist the Monk to update the CS1|2 module for my homewiki. Such an update is usually done by copy-pasting the English version unto the Albanian version and looking at the diff page. The parts where the diff is symmetrical usually mean that those parts contain no changes in code but only changes in translation. These are the parts which you need to ignore and are usually considered just noise because you want to preserve the Albanian translation. All the other non-symmetrical parts mean there are code changes for example, missing code blocks, parts that have been rewritten, etc. What I'm trying to achieve is to have a way to ignore the aforementioned "noise", all the symmetrical parts, and only focus on non-symmetrical changes on the diff page. This would help basically all the wikis that rely on the same module for their citations as I strongly believe the procedure to be more or less the same as what I described. Trappist suggested activating wikEdDiff and it was sort of close to what I was striving for but at the same time it sort of worked on the reverse of what I was hoping for. Symmetrical changes were grouped together on the same line and this made them easier to see while everything else was a bit harder to navigate for my eyes, maybe because I'm not used to the arrows it makes use for. So at this point I'm kinda stuck... - Klein Muçi (talk) 12:02, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I can't quite discern what you're after. What do you mean to ignore the noise other than to, you know, ignore it? An example of a diff with which you have the problem and an example of what you want to see instead would help. Nardog (talk) 12:19, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Take a look at this diff. Scroll slowly from the top all the way down. In the beginning, on the right, you'll see a block of code that doesn't exist on the left. Then you'll get a large symmetrical part of code on which the only changes are words more or less, not code per se. Eventually you'll reach to portions of code that start to get non-symmetrical again. And then you'll get symmetrical changes again and the cycle repeats until you reach the bottom.

What I - and I suppose most non-EnWiki CS1|2 maintainers do - is to keep that diff only as a preview (not saved, although I saved it in this case to show it to you) and then open in another tab the module code and start focusing only on the non-symmetrical parts of the diff. Do some work, save, create another diff preview, open a new tab and work some more, save again, create another diff preview... After some iterations you'll get left only with symmetrical changes more or less and only then focus on them individually to see if you need to do any changes on them (most of the time you don't) and finally save and call the update completed.

What I'd want to have is maybe a button the press of which would grey out/hide/something else that makes it easier to ignore them all the symmetrical parts of the code, allowing me to focus on the non-symmetrical changes until I've finished working with them.

Is it any clearer now? The kind of confusion you felt is exactly why I was reluctant to go anywhere else for help because I too have it difficult to express what I have in mind about this. I also assume most EnWiki technical editors would rarely have encountered this situation because they don't need to do updates based on other wikis code so that would make it even harder to explain it. - Klein Muçi (talk) 12:48, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, maybe you can try this. What it does is add the class symmetricalchange to the <tr> elements of what you call "symmetrical changes" every time you open a diff, and add a portlet link to the Tools section, clicking of which toggles the class symmetricalchanges-enabled on <body>, so that you can customize what you want the "symmetrical changes" to look like in your own CSS. For example,

.symmetricalchanges-enabled .symmetricalchange {
	display: none;
}

if you want to completely hide them;

.symmetricalchanges-enabled .symmetricalchange > td {
	font-size: 10%;
}

if you want to squash them;

.symmetricalchanges-enabled .symmetricalchange {
	opacity: 0.4;
}

if you want to make them "fade out".

I'm not sure if one would really want to obscure all of what you call symmetrical changes though. Consider the line 892 (left) / 954 (right) in your example. That would count as symmetrical, although it's a crucial change of code. There's no viable (i.e. not ad hoc) way for a script to detect stuff like that. Nardog (talk) 13:52, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wow! I'm literally amazed but what you just did. I know it's just code but I've suffered for years from this problem and to have it solved out with just 1 single request and a few lines of code feels like magic... I didn't even need to go to WP:US/R. Thanks a lot!

I am aware of the effect you mention. There are many occasions where a symmetrical change would actually be meaningful. Most of the times it's an English line being totally rewritten with a different meaning and given that it is already translated in now an outdated version of it it would count as a symmetrical change and not show. But I always check the code line per line for those occasions in the end. This is only to facilitate the importing of other easier-to-see/bigger changes.

Just 1 improvement (?) idea: Can the toggle be actually made into a small floating-on-screen-like button? That way I can toggle and untoggle continuously even while scrolling down, not needing to scroll to the Tool sections each time. - Klein Muçi (talk) 15:49, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Also, can the hiding/squashing/fading out effect encompass even the unchanged lines that accompany hidden/squashed/faded out lines before and after them? - Klein Muçi (talk) 16:03, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

To make the link float (change left to right if you want it on the other side):

#t-symmetricalchanges {
	position: fixed;
	bottom: 0;
	left: 0;
}

Now it adds the class symmetricalchange-context to symmetrical-adjacent context lines. So e.g.

.symmetricalchanges-enabled .symmetricalchange > td,
.symmetricalchanges-enabled .symmetricalchange-context > td {
	font-size: 10%;
}

Beware that this could affect context lines adjacent to non-symmetrical changes (e.g. line 532/560). Nardog (talk) 06:42, 8 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! That's all I needed. :) - Klein Muçi (talk) 10:03, 8 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I was experimenting around with your script just out of curiosity now and I found out that apparently it doesn't work in other namespaces beside the modules' one. Is that intended? At least it didn't work on the mainspace's and templates' diffs. It hardly creates a problem for me, not to say any, because so far I've only wanted that function just for modules, most specifically for that 1 module, but I was just curious. - Klein Muçi (talk) 01:26, 9 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No, the script should run on those pages. Please provide links. Nardog (talk) 05:23, 9 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Retried it with this edit. Apparently what happens is that it does work with the diff after it is saved. It doesn't work with the preview function. But with modules it works in preview. If you remember above, I said that the way I use it is to have it on preview mode on a tab and open another working tab simultaneously. I can't really provide a link for previews as you can imagine but you can try it yourself on that page. Change some parameter values on it and preview your changes without saving them. - Klein Muçi (talk) 09:37, 9 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, that's because you're using the 2017 editor, which is a pain in the butt to implement anything with. The script should now support it, but you have to add z-index: 999; to the CSS for #t-symmetricalchanges for the link to be clickable. Nardog (talk) 12:05, 9 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I just did but I don't see the link at all. Maybe I've done it wrongly? :/ - Klein Muçi (talk) 14:57, 9 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Have you previewed a diff with symmetrical changes? Nardog (talk) 21:30, 9 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've tried a lot of variations. :/ The preview I talk about is basically a popup. You do the changes, press on Publish and when you get the option to input the summary you press the preview button. There you get a diff page as a popup with a big blue button on the top right corner to publish the changes. Are we talking about the same thing? - Klein Muçi (talk) 21:36, 9 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We are. Don't you see "Toggle symmetrical changes" at the bottom right of the page? Nardog (talk) 21:56, 9 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry but I don't. :/ Can you try doing a change whatever in my homewiki where you are sure the toggle link appears, preview and make sure it does, not save it and tell me to do the same thing? - Klein Muçi (talk) 22:02, 9 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If you replace the CSS #t-symmetricalchanges with {position: relative; z-index: 999;}, do you see the link show up in the Tools section when you preview a diff? Nardog (talk) 23:55, 9 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If I did it right then, sadly, again no. - Klein Muçi (talk) 00:21, 10 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Klein Muçi: Do you see the message "The link to toggle symmetrical changes has been added" pop up when you preview a diff with symmetrical changes? Nardog (talk) 13:29, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No. Everything is as it was. Maybe some other script or gadget is interfering? - Klein Muçi (talk) 14:33, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If it still doesn't work, yeah, interference is likely at this point. Nardog (talk) 14:47, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Strangely enough, I just removed every other JS script and disabled ALL gadgets and still get nothing. :( - Klein Muçi (talk) 15:23, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You still get the popup when viewing a diff or editing a module though, right? Nardog (talk) 15:28, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that is correct. - Klein Muçi (talk) 15:38, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

How about now? Nardog (talk) 16:01, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry but still no. :/ - Klein Muçi (talk) 16:29, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Can you show me a screenshot of the preview of a diff with symmetrical changes? Imgur would do. Nardog (talk) 16:45, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is me previewing a diff in the main page itself, all JS scripts and gadgets disabled beside the one we're talking and two CSS scripts that serve for error detection in CS1|2. - Klein Muçi (talk) 16:55, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think I've identified the problem. Try again (I've removed the popup, so look for the link under Tools). Nardog (talk) 17:16, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes! It now works on all namespaces and I can guarantee that no interference was coming from any of the scripts or gadgets. There are only some minor bugs now: Sometimes it takes some tries to get the toggle link under Tools. Maybe that's because I didn't change enough lines the first tries to trigger it? After it is triggered, it stays there even while editing (not previewing anything) and the most important part, as you said, it only appears at the tools' section on the sidebar which makes it a bit hard to utilize it. The whole "make-it-float" thing we discussed in the beginning. - Klein Muçi (talk) 18:18, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Is it more stable now? You can restore the floating CSS, but keep the z-index part. I told you to replace it with position: relative; only because I thought the floating link might have simply been hidden for some reason. The link staying is as intended. The script adding the link only after detecting a diff with symmetrical changes is only so that it doesn't show a link that does nothing. Nardog (talk) 01:51, 12 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, now it's very reliable, it works every time. It's also floatable. The only "problem" is that once you preview the changes once the link stays forever on even while editing, be that fixed in the tools or floating at the bottom of the page. That's hardly a problem but I thought I'd tell you anyway, maybe you want to be aware of it. - Klein Muçi (talk) 02:09, 12 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I just said that's the intended behavior. It's easy to detect a diff showing up, but it's not as easy to detect a diff being hidden. Nardog (talk) 02:11, 12 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

On 18 July 2022, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Death of Wishma Sandamali, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that in 2021, Wishma Sandamali, who was detained for overstaying her visa after seeking police protection for domestic abuse, became the 17th person to die in Japanese immigration detention since 2007? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Death of Wishma Sandamali. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Death of Wishma Sandamali), and if they received a combined total of at least 416.7 views per hour (i.e., 5,000 views in 12 hours or 10,000 in 24), the hook may be added to the statistics page. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Gatoclass (talk) 09:51, 15 July 2022 (UTC) 12:03, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

		Hook update
		Your hook reached 7,719 views (643.3 per hour), making it one of the most viewed hooks of July 2022 – nice work!

theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 05:22, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Moved to Help talk:IPA/French

An article you recently created, Strangers (upcoming film), is not suitable as written to remain published. It needs more citations from reliable, independent sources. (?) Information that can't be referenced should be removed (verifiability is of central importance on Wikipedia). I've moved your draft to draftspace (with a prefix of "Draft:" before the article title) where you can incubate the article with minimal disruption. When you feel the article meets Wikipedia's general notability guideline and thus is ready for mainspace, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page. BOVINEBOY2008 16:11, 30 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Nardog,

Backlog status

After the last newsletter (No.28, June 2022), the backlog declined another 1,000 to 13,000 in the last week of June. Then the July backlog drive began, during which 9,900 articles were reviewed and the backlog fell by 4,500 to just under 8,500 (these numbers illustrate how many new articles regularly flow into the queue). Thanks go to the coordinators Buidhe and Zippybonzo, as well as all the nearly 100 participants. Congratulations to Dr vulpes who led with 880 points. See this page for further details.

Unfortunately, most of the decline happened in the first half of the month, and the backlog has already risen to 9,600. Understandably, it seems many backlog drive participants are taking a break from reviewing and unfortunately, we are not even keeping up with the inflow let alone driving it lower. We need the other 600 reviewers to do more! Please try to do at least one a day.

Coordination

MB and Novem Linguae have taken on some of the coordination tasks. Please let them know if you are interested in helping out. MPGuy2824 will be handling recognition, and will be retroactively awarding the annual barnstars that have not been issued for a few years.

Open letter to the WMF

The Page Curation software needs urgent attention. There are dozens of bug fixes and enhancements that are stalled (listed at Suggested improvements). We have written a letter to be sent to the WMF and we encourage as many patrollers as possible to sign it here. We are also in negotiation with the Board of Trustees to press for assistance. Better software will make the active reviewers we have more productive.

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Delivered by: MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 21:24, 6 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Strangers (upcoming film) is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Strangers (upcoming film) until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.

BOVINEBOY2008 20:40, 10 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. as some administrators are not familiar with JSON syntax, I developed a script on Persian Wikipedia for easily adding users to AWB whitelist (new JSON file). You can find the original code at w:fa:MediaWiki:Gadget-AddNewUserToJSON.js (activated as a default gadget for administrators).

There is another whitelist on fawiki for a tool we use to translate articles from English Wikipedia and some of this code is related to that whitelist. I modified the code for English Wikipedia and stored the final code in User:Jeeputer/addOrRemoveUsersFromJson.js. can you please review the code or introduce me to the appropriate page for this application?

I think it also can be a default gadget for administrators on English Wikipedia. Thank you. Jeeputer (talk) 19:20, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what you want me to look at, as I'm not an admin so I'd have no use for it, but one thing that immediately jumped out at me is that it's loading the dependencies on every page. The early return should run before loading the dependencies. If you want to solicit more input I suggest you go to WP:VPT. Nardog (talk) 17:58, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Nardog,

Invitation

For those who may have missed it in our last newsletter, here's a quick reminder to see the letter we have drafted, and if you support it, do please go ahead and sign it. If you already signed, thanks. Also, if you haven't noticed, the backlog has been trending up lately; all reviews are greatly appreciated.

To opt-out of future mailings, please remove yourself here.

MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 23:11, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there, I'm interested in your IPAInput tool. Does it only work with Wikimedia wikis or is it possible get it running on non-Wikimedia wikis without having to drastically alter the source code? A diehard editor (talk | edits) 15:38, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I assume it'll work given it uses mediawiki.ForeignApi when not on enwp to fetch a key, but I haven't tried it and I have no intention of making sure it does (it's mainly meant to be used on this wiki, I made it work on other WMF wikis just as a bonus). Also note it assumes the wiki the script is running on has similar IPA(c)-xx templates. Nardog (talk) 02:58, 2 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I added mw.loader.load('//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Nardog/IPAInput.js&action=raw&ctype=text/javascript'); to my local wiki's MediaWiki:Common.js. I've been having trouble getting it to work with my VisualEditor extension, so I disabled it there.

Now, I'm dealing with CORS errors.

Cross-Origin Request Blocked: The Same Origin Policy disallows reading the remote resource at https://en.wikipedia.org/w/api.php?action=parse&format=json&origin=REDACTED&page=Help%3AIPA%2FEnglish&prop=text&redirects=1&wrapoutputclass=&disablelimitreport=1&disableeditsection=1&disablestylededuplication=1&disabletoc=1&formatversion=2. (Reason: CORS header ‘Access-Control-Allow-Origin’ missing). Status code: 403.

I've redacted the "origin" parameter as it's a private wiki (for my own use).

I'll just ask for help in the MediaWiki Discord server. A diehard editor (talk | edits) 03:55, 2 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. Still doesn't work. A diehard editor (talk | edits) 05:29, 2 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

P.P.S. I finally got IPAInput to work for English. I simply mirrored the script onto my local wiki and mirrored Help:IPA/English and modified the source code to use my wiki's local version, instead of loading the version from Wikipedia. A diehard editor (talk | edits) 15:23, 4 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there again!

Over the past few days I have been learning IPA (mostly by reading Help:IPA/English.) I finally felt confident enough to be bold by adding IPA to the Radia Perlman article (/ˈreɪdiə/). If you wish, you might want to check out the page and confirm that it is accurate.

Pronunciation source: Perlman's own voice in this YouTube video at the 0:38 mark.

I decided to inform you of this attempt as your user page has a lot of IPA-related stuff to it and you responded when I added the needs IPA tag to Damhnait Doyle and Emmanuelle Charpentier.

Thanks for reading! A diehard editor (talk | edits) 16:09, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

/ˈreɪdiə/ sounds correct. I'm glad you're learning the IPA, feel free to ask me again if you're unsure about a transcription. Nardog (talk) 02:43, 2 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Understood. Thanks! A diehard editor (talk | edits) 03:13, 2 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This template seems to be protected, so I cannot edit it myself, but this edit of yours is incorrect, the |title= parameter should be italicized in this case, given that it is to be completed with the title of the film, not the title of the website or page. For example, for Titanic, the title would be filled |title=Titanic, not |title=Titanic (1997). Hence, the italics are needed as every instance of the |title= parameter would be italicized. —El Millo (talk) 19:29, 4 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree obviously, but reverted per WP:TPEBOLD. Nardog (talk) 01:59, 5 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you disagree? The template is specifically for films and TV, nothing other than that will ever be in the |title= parameter. Thanks anyway. —El Millo (talk) 02:23, 5 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Nardog! I wanted to ask you something.

As you may remember, at SqWiki we utilize your script as a gadget. I was using it in the contributions of an IP to rollback some vandalisms lately and the behavior looked kinda strange. I got a rollback link in words which when clicked asked for a confirmation which when given, reloaded the page. I don't remember you script reloading pages or even asking for inline confirmation. Is this something I have missed when I asked for the different spaces when I hoped for your script to be active? Or maybe something has changed lately in that area and this has made your script malfunction? Or... Maybe it was always like this? I'm kinda confused and given the function's nature we're talking about (rollbacking someone else's contributions) is hard for me to do experiments with it. I thought maybe you can help clear out some of that confusion. - Klein Muçi (talk) 13:08, 5 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds like you've accidentally enabled "Show a confirmation prompt when clicking on a rollback link" in Preferences -> Appearance, in which case QuickRollback will not run on contributions. Nardog (talk) 14:36, 5 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. I had that enabled. I disabled it now. Hopefully this fixes it (have to wait until I have something to rollback from an IP to test it out). Thank you for the help! :)) — Klein Muçi (talk) 16:43, 5 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Just had the chance to test it out. It is indeed fixed now. Thank you one more time! — Klein Muçi (talk) 17:36, 5 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've been experiencing problems with IPAInput lately; so I edited my wiki's local version of the script to remove the following code:

(['edit', 'submit'].includes(mw.config.get('wgAction')) ||
document.documentElement.classList.contains('ve-available')) &&

And I simply put the ipaInput() in the global scope and had it execute, and somehow it always works. You might want to investigate this deeper. A diehard editor (talk | edits) 15:01, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Which editor are you using? Nardog (talk) 15:20, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The default MediaWiki interface in Firefox. A diehard editor (talk | edits) 15:40, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm asking if it's the 2010 editor, the 2017 editor, or VisualEditor, all of which are part of the default MediaWiki interface. See mw:Editor. Nardog (talk) 15:49, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ah. In that case, it's VisualEditor (source mode). A diehard editor (talk | edits) 15:59, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there, I've added (commented out) IPA to the Technoblade article. The transcription is /ˈtɛknoʊbleɪd/. I'm unsure about where to put the intonation stress marks (/ˈ/ and /ˌ/), so I decided to ask you here. A diehard editor (talk | edits) 15:46, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That's correct (the prevailing convention on this site is not to include secondary stress after primary stress within a word, unlike many American dictionaries), but Technoblade seems so straightforward I'm not so sure if a transcription is needed in consideration of WP:LEADPRON. Nardog (talk) 15:53, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We could get consensus at Talk:Technoblade on whether to add the pronunciation. And even then, I crafted that IPA by just combining the IPA at wikt:techno and wikt:blade. A diehard editor (talk | edits) 15:58, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Moved to Talk:Lexico

Edit warrior of wrong point reported the case Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#User:Staiolone. Ciao Staiolone (talk) 07:40, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Dear user, I put just correct names at two Italian towns! I improved this web encyclopedia. I made various articles regarding Italian automotive industry. Ciao--Staiolone (talk) 08:14, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

New Page Patrol | October 2022 backlog drive
On 1 October, a one-month backlog drive for New Page Patrol will begin. Barnstars will be awarded based on the number of articles patrolled and for maintaining a streak throughout the drive. Barnstars will also be awarded for re-reviewing articles. Redirect patrolling is not part of the drive. Sign up here!
You're receiving this message because you are a new page patroller. To opt-out of future mailings, please remove yourself here.

(t · c) buidhe 21:17, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've noticed you deleted some IPA-style pronunciations from biology articles with the summary "unsourced and impossible". (e.g. Maip, Wellnhopterus, Gigantspinosaurus, Carcharodon). I understand the "unsourced" part, but what do you mean by "impossible"? 49.144.196.176 (talk) 14:10, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

All polysyllabic words have one syllable with primary stress. /ə/ doesn't occur before a vowel inside the same word (Kafkaesque is the only exception I can think of but it's a recent coinage and there's a morphological boundary). Nardog (talk) 14:30, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Since the stupid December, 2019 encryption protocol upgrade, I've been struggling to access Wikipedia from home at all, and can only do so indirectly using a non-fully-Unicode-compliant tool, so it's quite unlikely that I'll always be able to insert the exact number of blank lines that would suit your finicky preferences. AnonMoos (talk) 23:04, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@AnonMoos: That exact number is zero, as long as your comment starts with : or *, and I'm at a loss as to how such a tool affects your ability to stop inserting blank lines. And WP:INDENTGAP is an accessibility guideline, not my preference. Nardog (talk) 23:15, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Nardog,

Much has happened since the last newsletter over two months ago. The open letter finished with 444 signatures. The letter was sent to several dozen people at the WMF, and we have heard that it is being discussed but there has been no official reply. A related article appears in the current issue of The Signpost. If you haven't seen it, you should, including the readers' comment section.

Awards: Barnstars were given for the past several years (thanks to MPGuy2824), and we are now all caught up. The 2021 cup went to John B123 for leading with 26,525 article reviews during 2021. To encourage moderate activity, a new "Iron" level barnstar is awarded annually for reviewing 360 articles ("one-a-day"), and 100 reviews earns the "Standard" NPP barnstar. About 90 reviewers received barnstars for each of the years 2018 to 2021 (including the new awards that were given retroactively). All awards issued for every year are listed on the Awards page. Check out the new Hall of Fame also.

Software news: Novem Linguae and MPGuy2824 have connected with WMF developers who can review and approve patches, so they have been able to fix some bugs, and make other improvements to the Page Curation software. You can see everything that has been fixed recently here. The reviewer report has also been improved.

Suggestions:

• There is much enthusiasm over the low backlog, but remember that the "quality and depth of patrolling are more important than speed".
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Backlog:

Saving the best for last: From a July low of 8,500, the backlog climbed back to 11,000 in August and then reversed in September dropping to below 6,000 and continued falling with the October backlog drive to under 1,000, a level not seen in over four years. Keep in mind that there are 2,000 new articles every week, so the number of reviews is far higher than the backlog reduction. To keep the backlog under a thousand, we have to keep reviewing at about half the recent rate!

Hello! I noticed you edited my recent additions of Template:IPA to Peter Stuyvesant and Erich von Drygalski. Could you explain why my additions were incorrect and how I could improve my IPA additions in the future? -insert valid name here- (talk) 23:14, 19 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the inquiry! For major European languages like Dutch and German as in these cases, the surest way is to consult Duden Das Aussprachewörterbuch or Deutsches Aussprachewörterbuch (and conform their transcription to our key). You can also search with hastemplate:IPA-de etc. to see how other articles transcribe the language, though inevitably not all of them are guaranteed to be correct. And comparing transcriptions on Wikipedia and in dictionaries to how they say them on Forvo, YouTube, etc. should improve your sense of how to transcribe and how to judge whether a transcription is correct. My user page lists sources on pronunciation I've found useful. Hope this helps. Nardog (talk) 04:13, 20 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the reply! -insert valid name here- (talk) 14:37, 20 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Your edit on "Talk:English words without vowels" may have caused you to feel smug, but it was semi-dumb. Putting a paragraph break between one's comment and user signature is surely not the best Wikipedia talk-page style, and I delete such blank lines when I happen to come across them and it's convenient for me to do so. Wikipedia users are allowed to edit the comments of other Wikipedia users with respect to minor technical formatting issues (indentation level, etc). You've been editing my comments with respect to what you perceive as minor technical formatting issues, so I'm not sure why you seek to deny to me the same privilege which you allow to yourself... AnonMoos (talk) 21:33, 20 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@AnonMoos: Like I said, WP:INDENTGAP is an accessibility guideline. If you think I'm asking you to follow it "to feel smug", I don't know what to tell you. What you did here made the signature to appear in the previous paragraph, while some users (including one admin) do prefer to put their signatures in their own paragraphs. While adherence to INDENTGAP is explicitly recommended in Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines (WP:TALKGAP) and is in the list of things you're allowed to do and edit other people's comments, I don't see moving signatures as one of them. Nardog (talk) 09:20, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm using a purely textual browser to browse and edit Wikipedia from home, so I probably know a whole lot more about accessibility issues from personal experience than you do. Leaving a blank line between talk page comments indented at the same level makes things MORE accessible in the text-mode browser I use (the absence of such blank lines means that comments by different users display in a single amalgamated and undifferentiated block, which can be confusing). Maybe you should focus on actually improving Wikipedia, rather than obsessing over inessential issues such as the exact number of blank lines on talk pages... AnonMoos (talk) 21:22, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I read the article which deals with this accent, and, accordingly, I didn't understand whether this accent was chiefly British or American. Listening to Katherine Hepburn convinced me that this accent was predominantly British, to say nothing of Billie Burke. I'm a novice in phonetics, so could you help me with answering this question? Роман Сергеевич Сидоров (talk) 07:45, 23 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Nardog!
Some time ago you helped the SqWiki community set up the aforementioned scripts-now-turned-gadgets and for me they've become the main way I patrol recent changes. I was wondering if we could have a similar functionality in regard to thanking people (QuickThank?) for their specific edits from the recent changes page as well? Something like a heart appearing beside edits, the click of which thanks the user who made said edit for, well, that edit. Does that make sense?
I mention Special:RecentChanges because that's what I mostly use myself but ideally such a thank function would appear in other places where you can see lists of edits and thank people for those edits (similar to how QuickAccept/Rollback work). — Klein Muçi (talk) 12:40, 8 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

User:Nardog/QuickThank.js. Since the Thanks extension already comes with a script-enhanced confirmation button, it doesn't reinvent the wheel and uses that instead. User:Nardog/ButtonizeRollback.css‎ has also been updated to support QuickThank. It currently runs on RecentChanges, Watchlist and Contributions, but it'd help if you were more specific than "other places where you can see lists of edits". Nardog (talk) 15:48, 9 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you!
Is this what I have to put at our gadgets def page to turn it into a gadget: QuickThank[ResourceLoader|dependencies=mediawiki.api,mediawiki.util,user.options]|QuickThank.js?
And yes, I was thinking of being more specific but I remembered the last time that I had to come back here multiple times in a row for "one last page" and that's why I put it like that. — Klein Muçi (talk) 02:20, 10 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I put what I suggested and it appears to be working nicely. We have forgotten to make it run on pages' histories though. Also in the special log pages, if I'm not wrong. (Special:Log?type=...) Speaking of this maybe even the other 2 Quick-siblings should be activated there. — Klein Muçi (talk) 02:30, 10 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You don't need ,user.options but my gosh, isn't it too early to make it a gadget? We haven't even pinned down what it should do. Page history and logs already come with thank buttons. I decided against making it run on PendingChanges btw, because the diffs aren't always of one edit and it complicates things considerably. Nardog (talk) 03:01, 10 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, page history pages do have thank "buttons" (they're links actually) but they're not available for bots. I had happened to stumble only on bot edits when checking them some minutes ago. I agree for PendingChanges. Maybe we shouldn't make it work on bot contribution pages then?
... isn't it too early to make it a gadget?
Could be. I tested it out as a user script, didn't find any flaws (I was surprised by the confirmation question but then I thought it was a good thing because it could save you from missclicks) and I thought that it wouldn't need any further testing because the "overall logic" was already tested with the other 2 QuickScripts. I couldn't even think of further tests to be honest. :/ — Klein Muçi (talk) 03:22, 10 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know how to tell whether the contributor is a bot aside from asking the server every single time, and that seemed overkill. You can undo your rollback and you can unaccept a change, but you can't unthank someone, hence the confirmation. |rights=review for ButtonizeReview needs to be removed if QuickThank is a gadget. Nardog (talk) 03:41, 10 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I understand. Done. Thank you one more time! :)) — Klein Muçi (talk) 03:48, 10 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The style of threading seen in your change regularly draws complaints from people who find it more difficult to read the page when a series of separate comments all begin with exactly the same number of colons. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 22:45, 10 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

And what if someone had something to say to Matma Rex but not to you? Where are they supposed to insert their comment, and how many colons? Most people aren't going to retroactively outdent your comment, and this habit of mindlessly appending comments too often leads to unwieldy threads. Just reply to the comment you're replying to. Nardog (talk) 22:59, 10 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I find that no matter which approach you choose, there is a chance that someone will disagree. Personally, I usually take a "live and let live" approach, especially in shorter sections. If we used bulleted lists (like the Russian Wikipedia) or colored lines (like the French Wikipedia), then probably more people would prefer your style. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 23:47, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see anything in the IPA handbook that specifies that Greek-encoded letters must be used. In fact, I'm reasonably certain that these Latin letters were added precisely because of their use in IPA: see the proposal document here: [1]. Sections 5.1 and 5.3. There are also other reasons why it's a bad idea to mix scripts like this, too, but I don't think it's necessary to go into that. Theknightwho (talk) 12:27, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The appendix specifies the Unicode code points for a voiced bilabial fricative and a voiceless uvular fricative to be 03B2 and 03C7, respectively. As does the List of symbols and diacritics with descriptions & identifiers published in 2020. Nardog (talk) 12:36, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Mea culpa. Theknightwho (talk) 12:40, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Following discussion at talk:Glyph#Article scope and set index, I have edited the article heavily. If you have a moment, I would welcome your expert eye on the result, please? 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 16:01, 27 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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I don't understand your revert. The vowel is not long, as demonstrated by Wiesel in his recording of his name, so /iː/ would clearly mislead almost all WP users. And Collins has /i/ https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/wiesel in the correct pronunciation with the stress on the second syllable (US, not UK). And this vowel is unstressed, so why would it be wrong to use a weak vowel symbol? We use /i/ in our English IPA help page for "mediocre". Isn't that the same kind of weak /i/ as in Wiesel? --Espoo (talk) 21:56, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

See Help:IPA/English#cite_note-i-u-43. The first vowel in Wiesel is neither prevocalic nor morpheme-final, and does not alternate with /ɪ/. /i/ in Webster's New World College Dictionary is our /iː/, see fleece. Our /i/ represents a situation affected by happy tensing, which Wiesel is not. Nardog (talk) 22:05, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for explaining, but that apparently means that the IPA convention we've chosen here at WP clearly misleads probably 99% of WP users into thinking that all words described with /iː/ should be pronounced with a long /i/, when some or perhaps many would be incorrectly pronounced that way. It would specifically be incorrect to pronounce Wiesel that way. I'm confused by what you're trying to say with your link to "fleece". It's correct to have a long /iː/ there; this is specifically the vowel that is correct in "fleece" and wrong in Wiesel. --Espoo (talk) 22:28, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I was pointing out Webster's New World College Dictionary transcribes fleece, which Help:IPA/English uses to illustrate /iː/, as /flis/, meaning the /i/ in its transcription of Wiesel corresponds to our /iː/. Nardog (talk) 22:37, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I see, thanks.

So is there no hope of improving WP's IPA conventions to prevent misleading almost all users by showing /iː/ even in cases where a long vowel as in "fleece" is incorrect? --Espoo (talk) 18:12, 10 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's not incorrect. It's a phonemic transcription. You may not speak a variety of English with robust contrast in vowel length, but many do, for whom the length mark is helpful in identifying the phoneme. The fact it tends to be shorter in this position is just a general byproduct of the stress system. Nardog (talk) 21:47, 10 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't say it was incorrect. I said it's a clumsy and misleading transcription convention. It misleads people who haven't studied linguistics, i.e. almost all WP users, into thinking they should produce a long vowel like in "fleece" even in this unstressed position. --Espoo (talk) 18:49, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm having a hard time imagining how it could mislead an English speaker to producing an incorrect utterance. They're usually not good at manipulating vowel duration on command. They would get it right as long as they get the stress right. Nardog (talk) 22:45, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

OK, i see; so they'd end up saying it correctly even if they tried to say a long vowel in an unstressed syllable. So our convention is only misleading for people like me who know a little but not a lot about our convention, especially if they've learned a language like Finnish... ;) Thanks a lot for your patience. --Espoo (talk) 14:08, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]